What It Means to be Lutheran - Week 5

[00:00:01] Speaker A: So last week we looked at sacraments more broadly, the idea of a sacrament, and we'll review that. This week we're going to look at baptism specifically, and next week we're going to look at the Lord's supper specifically. Let's pray. Heavenly Father, you made us, you know us. Thank you for giving us what you know we need. Thank you for coming to us through your word and sacraments to feed us and to give and strengthen faith in Christ. Please bless us with all your gifts that you give to us. Life, salvation, forgiveness of sins, fill us with the fruits of your spirit, and bless us this morning as we consider your word and truth. In Jesus name. Amen. All right, and could we put the slides up on the back, too, so I don't lose my place? Wait, what's up there? All right, thank you. Okay, so I said we'd start with review. This is all. Everything on the slides is also on the handout this morning. So this is the sacrament, the three part definition of a sacrament that we gave last week. And it's written down for you, so you actually have it. But there are three elements that make a sacrament in the specific way that we're using the term sacrament. And those are that it's instituted by Christ, that it includes a physical element. So in baptism, that's water, and in the Lord's supper, it's bread and wine. And finally, that through those elements, those physical elements, with those elements is conferred God's grace, is given God's grace. So the sacraments are means of grace, means by which God gives us his grace. Now, last time, we talked about the different approaches to. Well, to everything, let's say, by Luther's opponents, all right? So you can picture Luther and. And the Lutherans and us in the middle of two extremes. Now, it's not always. It's not always true that. I mean, I. That the right way is the middle path or something like that, right? Or that it's like compromise between two extremes. That's not what this is. But it just so happens, I mean, maybe it is. I don't know. Luther says there are two ways to fall off a horse. He said that in his table talk. Like, it's like recordings of things that he said with, you know, with friends basically around the table. All right, there are two ways to fall off a horse. And here you see that. All right, so we're gonna review the Roman Catholic approach, and then the radical reformers who said, we've gotta. We gotta reform a whole lot more than Luther wanting to so these two extremes, and let me just mention that frequently in Luther's writings, he'll pause and say, now here we're kind of sitting between these two extremes. And he spells these out the way that I'm spelling it out, especially the first part in both of these slides we'll look at. All right, he does this in writings, like, well, in theological writings. He also does it in his sermons, which is interesting, but this is kind of how he defines the Lutherans as opposed to the others, that there are these two extremes. So the medieval Roman catholic approach to things in general was to attend to the physical. So, for example, in a sermonous on the end of John 19, where Jesus is buried, Luther says, now, the pope and the papists, they pay attention to Christ's tomb, and they say how glorious it is there in Jerusalem. They're focused on the physical. And then the radical reformers, the spiritualists, he'll call them, or the radical spirits, or the enthusiasts, he'll call them. Zwingli and Calvin are a couple of the main ones. So the Roman Catholics, like the papists, they look at the physical tomb and they kind of lift it up like it's something. And then the radicals say, well, it's nothing. You know, it's not the physical, it's the spiritual that matters. And Luther says, really, they both matter. They just have to be. We have to distinguish them properly. We have to see them for what they are. You know, the virgin birth is something he says in that context, like the virgin birth, does it matter? Yeah, it sure does matter that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. This was for us and for our salvation, so you kind of have to hold them together. So the medieval Roman Catholic Church focused on the physical, and you can see that in their approach to the sacraments. That said and says, ex opera operato by the work worked. Like, just by doing the thing, it's done, it just matters that it's done in the sacraments. And the Lutherans said, wait, you're neglecting faith. Faith in the word, in the sacrament, is really important, and you just skip over that. Then you missing out on what matters. So then the other side of things was the radical reformers who attended to the spiritual and rejected the physical. And again with this phrase, the finite cannot contain the infinite. So physical things are sort of reminders of spiritual things, but they're not part of the thing itself. Like, the benefit of the sacrament has nothing to do with water, nothing to do with. You know, it's like, that's not even really part of it. It's just an image to remind you of the spiritual reality that you're getting. And the lutheran approach was to properly distinguish between the physical and the spiritual. Don't mistake physical things for the thing itself, but don't throw out physical things either. Right. We've got to understand how these fit together. So now I'm going to explain what we talked about last week with an illustration. But first, these are the principles that I laid out a couple weeks ago that will be illustrated by the illustration, because that's what illustrations do, they illustrate. So we've been saying the word alone is heavenly and makes earthly things heavenly. All right? And that is embodied in the principle scripture alone. Spiritual goods can't be generated from below. Like, you can't just build things on earth apart from God's word, build things up to be spiritual or come up with spiritual ideas and such. All spiritual goods are given from above and they're received by faith. Spiritual goods come down from above and are received by faith. So faith alone, again, they come down by the word. The word is spiritual and makes earthly things spiritual. Luther illustrates this with the concept of a ring. Now, I've brought this up before in the context of faith. This last week, I was reading a pamphlet on baptism by Luther that's actually in the Book of Concord. If you're looking in the Book of Concord, it's squished between the. Well, where does it fit? I don't know. I've got it right here. But it's actually, I think it's labeled as part of the large catechism. But it's a pamphlet on baptism. And he actually, throughout this pamphlet, he keeps coming back to this image of the ring. All right, now, I've used the ring, as Luther does, to describe faith. Christ is the gem held in the ring, and that he gives that ring to us, to his bride, so that we have him. But he says the ring is faith and it's received, and then faith clings to just like a ring, clings to the Gemdez, you know, hangs onto that gem. It's like faith receives and clings to Christ and then has all that he is. All right. In this pamphlet on baptism, it was really interesting to see. He just keeps coming back to this image of the ring, but each time he uses it to describe the relationship between the physical and the spiritual, or the relationship between earth and heaven and having to do with the word and everything that we've been talking about. All right, so the gem is the word or Christ, and then that word is attached to an earthly element. Or you could say something, something external. So even when we speak words, that's something, I guess, outside in the physical world. It's not like an inner spiritual thought or something like that. It's externalized, and that is, let's say, an earthly element. So the gem is the word of Christ, and then it's set and held in an earthly element to be received by faith, like a ring. Do you see that? So the setting of the ring that holds the gem is something physical. It's like, now if I decided, well, that was a little bit too abstract. Let me try and. Let me try and embody this in an earthy example or something like that, and started talking about a seed and earth, like Christ does, or something like that. That's what that would be doing. Christ gives a. He teaches, and then he offers an earthly example to flesh it out, to make it concrete for us. That's what examples do in general. So you give some kind of a concept, and then you flesh it out with something earthly and understandable. Now it has kind of body, and you can hang on to that example because the concept. Because you have an example of it. So does that make sense? I kind of gave the concept of what an example is without fleshing it out, but I kind of fleshed it out. I don't know. I'm a little confused about where I'm at with this, but that's okay. So we need earthly things. So I'm going to read a couple things from that pamphlet. All right. So Luther says, faith must have something to believe, something to which it may cling and upon which it may stand. Thus faith clings to the water and believes it to be baptism, in which there is sheer salvation and life, not through the water, but through its incorporation with God's word and ordinance and the joining of his name to it. So faith needs something to hang onto, actually, something external and physical water. So just in the next paragraph, he says this. Yes, it must be external so that it can be perceived and grasped by the senses and thus brought into the heart, just as the entire gospel is an external oral proclamation. So here he's just laying out a basic, like, basically the way that we work, and it brings together the physical and the spiritual, and that is that in order to receive something in the heart, we have to. It has to be brought in by the senses. Or St. Augustine and others, I'm sure, talk about the senses like the gates of the soul. Like that. You see things and they're brought into your heart, and you hear things and they're brought into your heart and such. So Luther is saying in baptism, we actually. We need water. We need something to see, something to grasp in. Even hearing God's word. Like, we hear it with our ears, right? It's brought in through our ears, into our heart. So without something physical and external, we don't even like. We don't like. What have you learned or received spiritually that has not come to you through some kind of physical or external means? Right. Like through your senses, everything. So, you know, even, let's say in the case of, oh, this is terrible, the famous lady who is blind and deaf. Helen Keller. Yeah. Like, it's through feel. I mean, it's like, still has to come through sensation that she ends up learning incredibly. Right? So we receive everything through our senses. And through our senses, then they're brought into our heart, and with our heart, we believe. I think it was last week that we heard from Romans. You know, how will they believe if they haven't heard? Right? And how will they hear if they. I haven't had it preached to them and that kind of thing. We need external means. And so there's nothing wrong with having something physical like water in baptism and saying that the water actually matters. So Luther actually says that there's bodily and spiritual benefit in the water of baptism. I mean, in baptism there's benefit for body and soul. So here he goes. Two things are done in baptism. The body has water poured over it because all it can receive is the water. What else is the body going to receive? He's talking about body and soul, body and heart, external and internal. And your body doesn't have. Your body doesn't understand things per se. I mean, it's sort of. I guess. I guess your mind learns things, and then your body has, like, muscle memory, right? But even that probably comes from the mind. I don't know. That was an interesting thought. But so your body, like, what does it gain from the word? Well, it gains something because it's united to your soul. All right? And then your soul and your body are united to one another, as we just said. Right? Your body, your bodily senses receive things, and then your soul uses that and benefits from it. So anyway, here's the rest of the quote. Two things are done in baptism. The body has water poured over it because all it can receive is the water. And in addition, the word is spoken so that the soul may receive it, because the water and the word together constitute one. Baptism. Both body and soul shall be saved and live forever. The soul through the word in which it believes the body because it is united with the soul and apprehends baptism in the only way it can. No greater jewel. Okay, the ring. No greater jewel, therefore, can adorn our body and soul than baptism. For through it we become completely holy and blessed, which no other kind of life and no work on earth can acquire. All right, so I'm going to read a little quote now where he talks about the ring. Thus, you see plainly that baptism is not a work that we do, but that it is a treasure that God gives. Treasure that God gives us and faith grasps. Just as the Lord Christ upon the cross is not a work, but a treasure placed in the setting of the word and offered to us in the word and received by faith. Therefore, those who cry out against us as if we were preaching against faith do commit violence against us. Actually, we insist on faith alone as so necessary that without it, nothing can be received or enjoyed. So here he uses. He's talking about baptism, but then he uses the example of Christ crucified, preached. So the cross is preached, and it's like Christ on the cross is the gem that's set in the ring of the oral proclamation of that word. So orally, Christ on the cross is preached, and then externally, physically, sort of through your ears, you receive that word, and then faith holds onto it like it's receiving a ring. All right? Does that make sense? One more example of this ring thing. So this is actually right after what I just read. He says this. Thus, we have considered the three things that must be known about this sacrament, especially that it is God's ordinance and is to be held in all honor. This alone would be enough even if baptism were an entirely external thing. Similarly, now he's going to use another example. Similarly, the commandment you shall honor father and mother refers only to human flesh and blood. Yet we look not at the flesh and blood, but at God's commandment, in which it is set. Again with that setting, the idea of the ring. We look not at the flesh and blood, but at God's commandment, in which it is set, and on account of which this flesh is called father and mother. In the same way, even if we had nothing more than these words go baptize, we would still have to accept it as God's ordinance and perform it. Last line of the paragraph. For it is not the treasure that is lacking. Rather, what is lacking is that it should be grasped and held firmly. That's a little disconnected, but you hear the ring imagery. So anyway, this was very interesting to see because it's a structure with which we can understand, I guess, the Lutheran. How do we hold the physical and the spiritual, the earthly and the heavenly together so as not to fixate on the physical, earthly thing like the medieval Roman Catholics, or on the other hand, to just give up the physical and hang on to the spiritual. This all really matters because, I don't know, our context is very, very protestant. We've got non denominational churches all around and baptists and such. And so at least I often hear those arguments for baptism and against things like infant baptism or I guess baptism, the way that we understand it. And so hopefully some of this will form as a structure with which you can think of in thinking through these things and talking with people. Okay, so that was all kind of background. Now we're going to, look, this is just straight from Luther's small catechism. All right? So we're going to read these and talk about them a little bit together. What is baptism? Baptism is not just plain water, but it is the water included in God's command and combined with God's word. So there we have the physical and the spiritual. You could say the earthly and the heavenly united the water. That's an earthly, external thing that you can feel and such. But it's not just water in baptism, it's water included in. Notice he's saying not even that they're equals, right? But that the water is included in God's command. It's like enveloped, sort of by God's command and combined with God's word. That's how baptism is special. It's by God's word, which comes down from above and makes things spiritual. All right, Luther helpfully says, well, which is that word of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Matthew, therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So in this pamphlet on baptism, Luther makes a lot of God's name being combined to it, not just his word, but, like, his name. And, and when he attaches his name to something, doesn't, I mean, that boy, that means something. That's a pretty good seal and guarantee that this is something special and that it's his work and not ours. What benefits does baptism give? It works. Forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare. Okay, so what are those words and promises of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. So salvation is tied to baptism. Here now I can't remember where this is, but Luther somewhere makes a distinction. I wish I remembered where it was. I read it in like the last two weeks. Though somewhere Luther makes a distinction, saying that you can be saved by, like you don't have to be baptized to be saved necessarily. I mean, so you can look at the thief on the cross. Jesus says to him, today you'll be with me in paradise. And then here in Mark, Jesus says, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, tying baptism to salvation. But then in the second part of it, he doesn't say, but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned. Notice that? So there's a distinction made there that it's not by not being baptized so that you're not saved. Right? It's by not, it's by not believing. Thank you. That we're not saved. So whoever does not believe will be condemned. I guess this also ties faith to baptism as well, which we'll talk about. All right. How can water do such great things? Certainly not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God's word, the water is plain water and no baptism. This keeps going for two more slides. But with the word of God it is a baptism that is a life giving water rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit. As St. Paul says in Titus, chapter three, he saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our savior, so that having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs, having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. So not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things. So one of the differences between Luther and the radical reformers is that the radical reformers were teaching baptism as something that we do. It's an external ceremony that represents an inward change that has already taken place recently. I was, let's say, in the last year I was, oh no, it's been a while. We've been here almost a year now. So. Yeah, yeah, it's been great. Anyway, not too long ago I was talking with somebody who is, well, probably non denominational, but holds to baptist beliefs. And she was, I don't even think she knew I was a pastor, maybe she did, but she was saying that she's not baptized, and she's been waiting and just doesn't think she's ready. And the way that she gauged her own readiness was based on the degree to which she sensed that her inner life had been transformed by Jesus. Because if baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, then you probably should have that inward change before you celebrate it, or. I don't know. I don't know how they would say it, you know? But before you go through baptism, which is an outward sign of that. And so she was saying, I just don't think I'm there yet, which was kind of a good sign in a way, you know? Like, that's a good start, right? To despair of your own ability to. Or your own worthiness to say something like that about yourself, you know, like, I've had this inward change, and I'm ready to kind of stamp it, you know? And I don't know if. I'm sorry if I'm misrepresenting that position, because that sounds a little bit trite, you know, I don't want to misrepresent that position, but. But this lady was. I mean, it was so. I mean, what I tried to communicate to her is there's this gift waiting for you, you know, if you don't feel like you can do it, you know, then let God do it. You know, in baptism, it's not our work. We're not washing ourselves. And even in the word, in the way that scripture uses it, the word is usually used passively, like, we are baptized. That's a passive construction that draws attention to the fact that we're not baptizing ourselves. To baptize is to wash. It's a greek word, baptizo. We're not washing ourselves. We're being washed by God. Right? How does the verse say it? In Titus three, he saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs, having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. So we believe that baptism is God's work, by which he washes and cleans us and also drowns the old Adam. I'm going to take a moment to. I just said drowns the old Adam to talk about methods of baptism. All right. I. Not in the slides, but just a quick side track. That's important. I think so. At least in recent times. Let's say for a couple of centuries, maybe, or a few centuries. There's been a question of how to baptize people. Do you baptize by immersion or do you baptize by. What I learned is called infusion. Infusion is. Is putting water over a child, and immersion is putting a child or anybody into the water. And actually, believe it or not, babies are baptized this way today and always were, actually, by being immersed. Maybe that's easier to accept. Having watched a bunch of videos of instructors that. That teach little babies how to float. Have you seen that? Those are the most fun videos, but they put them down in the water, and you're like, that baby's gonna drown. And, no, it doesn't happen, actually. The baby comes up, and then I think they help him turn over. And then eventually you throw a baby in a pool, and the baby just comes to the surface, rolls over on its back, and floats, which is so cool. So it's a safety kind of training. But all that to say, until a few years ago, I don't think I would have thought that it would be safe to immerse a baby in water. But it turns out you can, and they're just fine. Okay, so let's get that out of the way. Still, I think it would be shocking for me to see a baptism that immerses a baby, but that says more about the context that I grew up in, I think, than anything else. So, at least in recent times, baptism by immersion in water has come to be. It's come to represent the Baptist approach to baptism, let's say, in contrast with the Lutheran. And so if you just looked at what they look like, you might say, like, well, we're Lutherans, and we just. We do this, you know, and. But the Baptists immerse. And then there are arguments that I think are. I mean, I guess somebody's got to think about this, but are a little bit silly. Like, I think, like, there are arguments that say Jesus couldn't have been immersed because he was baptized in the Jordan river at a certain time of the year, when there's not enough water in the Jordan river to immerse somebody in, you know, it's like, okay, really, we're gonna go to a. We're gonna try and extrapolate back into history about, like, the water levels in a river, you know, in a certain region of the world, and try and decide how baptism should be based on that. You know, it seems a little silly. Sorry. To whoever's, you know, out there arguing that from my humble, you know, perspective, that seems kind of silly. So, you know, so here's, here's just like, in terms of, well, how should we look at that as Lutherans? I think, first of all, that either way is fine. And that also, I just think that we should just, like, change the way we think. If we think that immersion is a baptist thing and we stay away from it because we don't want to be Baptist, you know, then, well, we might be missing out on something, first of all. Like, if somebody has a wrong view of something and then we distance ourselves from, like, good things, like, because we don't want the wrong take on it, then we miss out on the goods. There are lutheran churches that immerse. I've never been a member of one, honestly. So it's not like this is, you know, it's unusual just to infuse. And just to clarify again, like, I'm fine in infusing. I never use that word in that context. It's kind of funny to say, like, you know, I. That's. That's great. That's how I was baptized. And, you know, I think it worked. So. And everybody I know was baptized that way, too. And I think we're Christians, so actually, Luther uses that argument in the. In the pamphlet. Maybe we'll come to that again. All right, but. So I'm not trying to say, like, we should, you know, get this fawn out of here and build a pool in the front of the church, you know, but, like, you know, we could do both or something, you know, but came across this in the pamphlet on baptism by Luther. Let's see if I can. Nope, there it is. Okay. So he says, finally, we must also know what baptism signifies and why God ordained precisely this sign and external ceremony for the sacrament by which we are first received into the christian community. So why this sign? Why does it look like this? He says, this. This act or ceremony consists of being dipped into the water, which covers us completely and being drawn out again. These two parts being dipped under the water and emerging from it point to the power and effect of baptism, which is nothing else than the slaying of the old Adam and the resurrection of the new creature, both of which must continue in us our whole life long. Thus, a christian life is nothing else than a daily baptism begun once and continuing ever after. For we must keep at it without ceasing, always purging whatever pertains to the old Adam, so that whatever belongs to the new creature may come forth. What is the old creature? It is what is born in us from Adam, irascible, spiteful, envious, unchaste, greedy, lazy, proud. Yes, and unbelieving. It is beset with all vices and by nature has nothing good in it. Now, when we enter Christ's kingdom, this corruption must daily decrease, so that the longer we live, the more gentle, patient, and meek we become, and the more we break away from greed, hatred, envy, and pride. He goes on to talk about this a lot more, but what he's saying is that the life of the Christian is like daily baptism. It's like, again and again, having the old Adam drowned and. And then emerging the new Adam, who's Christ, right. And being conformed to him in that kind of a pattern. So I just read that just to point out that for Luther, this was meaningful and natural. And in the notes, in this version, this translation of the Book of Concord, it says that that infusion was around. It was, like, fairly ancient, too, but that it came about in the 14th century. So, anyway, all I'm really trying to do is level them at least and just say it's not just a baptist thing, and we want to be careful about. We don't want to be anti Baptist or, like, anti Catholic, right? We don't want to be, like, anti anything in that sense. We just are Lutheran, which is why we entitled this what it means to be lutheran. Right? All right. Okay. It's 1005. Okay. Okay. All right. What does such baptizing with water indicate is what we just talked about, actually. It indicates that the old atom in us should be should. That should say, I think, by should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil desires, and that a new man should daily emerge and arise to live before God in righteousness and purity forever. So the benefit of baptism is ongoing as it's received in faith, as we look to what God has done for us in our baptism and live in that every day. Where is this written? St. Paul writes in Romans, chapter six, we were therefore buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the father, we too may live a new life. All right, and then there's one more issue that we should talk about briefly, and that is infant baptism. So if in baptism we receive spiritual goods through a physical means, or let's say, sort of held onto by something physical, a physical element, water. If we receive spiritual goods held onto by water, if we receive that by faith, then what about a baby that doesn't have faith? Luther doesn't go there in this pamphlet. But one thing you can do is point to John the Baptist and just say, well, he's, you know, he leaped in his mother's womb at the voice of his lord's mother, right? And so that's pretty cool. I like to think of babies in the womb hearing. Hearing God's word. And, you know, God works through his word. And again, if God is doing the work, this is where Luther does go a few places, actually. But one thing he says is, if God's doing the work, then who's to say he's not doing it in a baby if he's doing the washing? Another thing he points out is this has always been done everywhere, and it's turned out christians, like I said a minute ago, so I think it works. It was what, you know, that was kind of an opening thing that he pointed out. But let's see. So, okay, so if it's, if it's received by faith, if the benefit is, is for faith, then how can a baby receive that? And so basically, a baby who's being baptized receives the washing of regeneration and rebirth in the Holy Spirit receives that from God, since God is doing the work, and then the rest of life is about looking back to that and receiving that by faith. We can reject that and walk away from that. Luther says, again, against the roman catholic position, like, well, if faith is absent, then sure, the baptism doesn't do anything for you. But the lack of faith, first of all, doesn't make baptism not valid, because baptism as God's washing, it doesn't depend on the faith of the recipient to be real, to be happening, because God does that. But then a child who's baptized, baby who's baptized is raised up in the faith and raised up to believe the promises, the words and promises of God that were attached to the water. Right? And that's where the benefit comes. Let's close it there and take questions for a few minutes. [00:41:43] Speaker B: Did Luther, in his explanation for infant baptism, did he relate the old covenant and the new covenant and the promises therein? Because if he rejected infant baptism, you'd have to say that what an infant would have received in the old covenant would be. I mean, Paul said the new covenant was superior to the old Covenant. So how could you reject infants in that promise? Did he talk about that? [00:42:19] Speaker A: Right. So the question was, did Luther, in his explanation, explain, I guess, go to the old covenant and the new Covenant and the relationship between them, which I'm guessing you're thinking of circumcision and being brought into the covenant as a baby. Israelite babies were brought into the covenant by circumcision. And so wouldn't baptism be analogous to that or related to that in the new Covenant? He didn't in this pamphlet on baptism. He might somewhere else, I'm not sure, but I think that is a good way of thinking about it. And I think to think otherwise, like, to say that, like, babies, that the children, like, they need to undergo a transformation, you know, before they can recognize it with an outward sign in baptism, like, to say that is kind of like a. I don't know, it sounds just really. Well, I don't know, this is. Sounds kind of modern and individualistic to say. Well, as opposed to, like, the ancient, like, okay, babies are brought in like, they're. They're in. They've been circumcised, you know, that's more of like a community and. Yeah, never mind. Let's just. Let's just leave that one. I tried with that. Anybody else? Any other questions? Just real quick. I think part of it, I mean, all those old accounts that you see in the New Testament of people coming to faith and then having their entire. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Household baptized, it doesn't exclude anybody. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:44:08] Speaker B: So would you say that even though the position of the Catholic Church and the Baptist are different on baptism, it's still, when you're baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it's a valid baptism? [00:44:30] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, we would say that it's still a valid baptism in, like, baptism in the Roman catholic church or Baptists, you know, both ends of the spectrum. And because it's being done according to God's command in the way that he instituted it. And so, yeah, it's happening and thank God, you know, I mean, so. [00:45:00] Speaker C: Along that lines, both my siblings were attending a Methodist church when my youngest nephew and my youngest niece were born. And I attended church with them a few times and was not happy. The creed was not included. The pastor very rarely read from scripture and such, but they wanted their children baptized there. But I took great comfort and I think the Holy Spirit needed me to have that. The service that they were baptized, they were baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Water and God's word were used. We confessed the apostles Creed and said the Lord's prayer. And that was a great deal of comfort to me to know that Colton and Kelsey had a valid baptism, because just having been to that church before, I was concerned what this was really going to be. So there are churches that's not the typical baptism in that church body, but they still do. My niece that was baptized in a blue pool on the back of a tractor trailer in the parking lot of a mega church, I didn't get to go to that one to hear that. The word of God. And that she was truly baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But I did get that from Colton and Kelsey. [00:46:17] Speaker A: Beautiful. Thank you. Let's close with prayer. Heavenly Father, thank you for washing us and giving us a new birth and uniting us to Jesus Christ in our baptism. Help us to live in that baptismal grace. Help us to believe, to have faith in your words and promises, and in Jesus Christ, to whom we've been united, in whom we have life and salvation and forgiveness. We thank you in Jesus name, amen. Thank you.